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	<title>Comments on: Leap of Faith or Failure of Reason?</title>
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	<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/</link>
	<description>Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science</description>
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		<title>By: Why Philosophical Naturalism Wins &#171; Vridar</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-28347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why Philosophical Naturalism Wins &#171; Vridar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2012 10:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-28347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Widowfield posted his own take on this in Leap of Faith Or Failure of Reason  Share this:TwitterRedditStumbleUponFacebookDiggLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post.   [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Widowfield posted his own take on this in Leap of Faith Or Failure of Reason  Share this:TwitterRedditStumbleUponFacebookDiggLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post.   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Faith and Reason &#171; Earthpages.ca</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Faith and Reason &#171; Earthpages.ca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 02:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Leap of Faith or Failure of Reason? (vridar.wordpress.com) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Leap of Faith or Failure of Reason? (vridar.wordpress.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Fischer</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Fischer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roo, certainly one can interpret &quot;see&quot; narrowly, but Tim and I both took the meaning much more broadly, much in the sense you do, I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roo, certainly one can interpret &#8220;see&#8221; narrowly, but Tim and I both took the meaning much more broadly, much in the sense you do, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Godfrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 01:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some Christian (and Jewish and Moslem) believers are necessarily faced with a faith-conflict here. The Bible tells them how to think and feel about nonbelievers. Jesus and other prophets lead by example and precept when they insult and condemn outsiders as being hypocrites, fools, etc. 

Those believers who do have empathy for certain outsiders must necessarily wonder how God will judge or else shelve out of view the contradictory precept. People who live by such a faith and who do recognize the contradictory reality around them necessarily are in a double-bind, believing contradictory things. (I am speaking from experience.)

I imagine those who lack genuine empathy are not bothered by contradictory inputs and can with the greater conviction embrace the Book&#039;s judgements of the outsider.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some Christian (and Jewish and Moslem) believers are necessarily faced with a faith-conflict here. The Bible tells them how to think and feel about nonbelievers. Jesus and other prophets lead by example and precept when they insult and condemn outsiders as being hypocrites, fools, etc. </p>
<p>Those believers who do have empathy for certain outsiders must necessarily wonder how God will judge or else shelve out of view the contradictory precept. People who live by such a faith and who do recognize the contradictory reality around them necessarily are in a double-bind, believing contradictory things. (I am speaking from experience.)</p>
<p>I imagine those who lack genuine empathy are not bothered by contradictory inputs and can with the greater conviction embrace the Book&#8217;s judgements of the outsider.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Widowfield</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24014</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Widowfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 23:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Dave, for the great link.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Dave, for the great link.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Widowfield</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Widowfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, there is disagreement about whether empathy is strictly emotional (hence, innate and spontaneous) or both cognitive and emotional. In fact some researchers are now using the term &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcominghateportal.org/uploads/5/4/1/5/5415260/the_neural_substrate_of_human_empathy-_effects__of_perspective-taking_and_cognitive_appraisal.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Perspective Taking&lt;/a&gt; (warning: PDF!), as either a distinct component of a broader definition of empathy or to distinguish empathy from the willful act of trying to think and feel like another person.

While we humans do have the innate ability to empathize with others, we should note:

1. Some people are incapable of empathy. In the Time article you referred to, de Waal called these people psychopaths. However, more often than not they are not psychopaths, but sociopaths. Sometimes they&#039;re quite capable of detecting emotions in others, but they lack the ability to identify with them. They may even take pleasure in others&#039; misfortune.

2. Just because you can empathize with another&#039;s emotions doesn&#039;t mean you will view them as valid. Instead of a shoulder to cry on our a helping hand, some people say, &quot;Snap out of it!&quot; This, I think, is evidence they they are imagining &lt;i&gt;themselves&lt;/i&gt; in another&#039;s situation, not viewing the matter from the other&#039;s perspective.

3. Our society often teaches people to deny our own emotions as a sign of strength and to look down on others who do not react the way we think they should.

4. Many people can empathize emotionally, at least to a degree, but they ascribe the worst motivations possible. If this behavior is a result of projection, then it tells us more about the &quot;empathizer&quot; than the &quot;empathizee.&quot;

For these reasons and others, a mixture of cultivated innate empathy and conscious &quot;perspective taking&quot; is required before we truly understand other people. Beyond that, it&#039;s important to accept the validity of others&#039; feelings and their reasons for feeling that way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there is disagreement about whether empathy is strictly emotional (hence, innate and spontaneous) or both cognitive and emotional. In fact some researchers are now using the term <a href="http://www.overcominghateportal.org/uploads/5/4/1/5/5415260/the_neural_substrate_of_human_empathy-_effects__of_perspective-taking_and_cognitive_appraisal.pdf" rel="nofollow">Perspective Taking</a> (warning: PDF!), as either a distinct component of a broader definition of empathy or to distinguish empathy from the willful act of trying to think and feel like another person.</p>
<p>While we humans do have the innate ability to empathize with others, we should note:</p>
<p>1. Some people are incapable of empathy. In the Time article you referred to, de Waal called these people psychopaths. However, more often than not they are not psychopaths, but sociopaths. Sometimes they&#8217;re quite capable of detecting emotions in others, but they lack the ability to identify with them. They may even take pleasure in others&#8217; misfortune.</p>
<p>2. Just because you can empathize with another&#8217;s emotions doesn&#8217;t mean you will view them as valid. Instead of a shoulder to cry on our a helping hand, some people say, &#8220;Snap out of it!&#8221; This, I think, is evidence they they are imagining <i>themselves</i> in another&#8217;s situation, not viewing the matter from the other&#8217;s perspective.</p>
<p>3. Our society often teaches people to deny our own emotions as a sign of strength and to look down on others who do not react the way we think they should.</p>
<p>4. Many people can empathize emotionally, at least to a degree, but they ascribe the worst motivations possible. If this behavior is a result of projection, then it tells us more about the &#8220;empathizer&#8221; than the &#8220;empathizee.&#8221;</p>
<p>For these reasons and others, a mixture of cultivated innate empathy and conscious &#8220;perspective taking&#8221; is required before we truly understand other people. Beyond that, it&#8217;s important to accept the validity of others&#8217; feelings and their reasons for feeling that way.</p>
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		<title>By: ROO BOOKAROO</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24012</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ROO BOOKAROO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tim, in empathy, there&#039;s no trying to feel. The contagion of emotion, like from a baby to her mother, is spontaneous and doesn&#039;t involve any conscious effort, and even less any willed intention.

You&#039;re thinking too much of imperatives, as in &quot;you should feel,&quot; or &quot;try to feel,&quot;. But that is not empathy, that is a moral imperative issued because of lack of natural, spontaneous emotional contagion.

This is what bugs me about phony Christianity, the feelings are not natural, real, they are dictated as precepts of morality. &quot;Love your neighbor as thyself&quot;? That is the antithesis of empathy. Empathy follows brain pathways that do not go through the frontal lobes.

See Frans B.M. de Waal &quot;The Age of Empathy: Nature&#039;s Lessons for a Kinder Society&quot;, 

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hWXoGryRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/The-Age-Empathy-Natures-Paperback/dp/B004T9YBH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1331934574&amp;sr=1-1

and his interview in Time Magazine of Sept. 25, 2009
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1925566,00.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, in empathy, there&#8217;s no trying to feel. The contagion of emotion, like from a baby to her mother, is spontaneous and doesn&#8217;t involve any conscious effort, and even less any willed intention.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re thinking too much of imperatives, as in &#8220;you should feel,&#8221; or &#8220;try to feel,&#8221;. But that is not empathy, that is a moral imperative issued because of lack of natural, spontaneous emotional contagion.</p>
<p>This is what bugs me about phony Christianity, the feelings are not natural, real, they are dictated as precepts of morality. &#8220;Love your neighbor as thyself&#8221;? That is the antithesis of empathy. Empathy follows brain pathways that do not go through the frontal lobes.</p>
<p>See Frans B.M. de Waal &#8220;The Age of Empathy: Nature&#8217;s Lessons for a Kinder Society&#8221;, </p>
<p><a href="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hWXoGryRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hWXoGryRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg</a>
<div style="width: 320px; text-align: center; background: #fff; border: 1px solid #aaa; margin: 3px; padding: 2px;">
<p style="margin: 10px 10px;"><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Age-Empathy-Natures-Paperback/dp/B004T9YBH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&#038;ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1331934574&#038;sr=1-1" target="_blank"><img src="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hWXoGryRL.jpg" height="300" width="300" alt="The Age of Empathy: Nature&#039;s Lessons for a Kinder Society (Paperback) by Frans De Waal, F. B. M. De Waal" style="padding:0;margin:0;border:none;" /></a></p>
<p style="font-size: 10px;"><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Age-Empathy-Natures-Paperback/dp/B004T9YBH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&#038;ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1331934574&#038;sr=1-1" target="_blank">The Age of Empathy: Nature&#039;s Lessons for a Kinder Society (Paperback) by Frans De Waal, F. B. M. De Waal</a></p>
<p style="font-size: 10px;">
<p style="margin: 10px 115px;"><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Age-Empathy-Natures-Paperback/dp/B004T9YBH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&#038;ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1331934574&#038;sr=1-1" target="_blank"><img alt="Buy from Amazon" src="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/buttons/buy-from-tan.gif"" style="padding:0;margin:0;border:none;" /></a></p>
</p></div>
<p>and his interview in Time Magazine of Sept. 25, 2009<br />
<a href="http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1925566,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1925566,00.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rage Against the Machinery &#171; The Winnipeg Skeptics</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rage Against the Machinery &#171; The Winnipeg Skeptics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] leave you with this brilliant quip by Tim Widowfield over on Vrider: Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leave you with this brilliant quip by Tim Widowfield over on Vrider: Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Wahler</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24009</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Wahler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;modern reality&quot;. Didn&#039;t catch it before posting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;modern reality&#8221;. Didn&#8217;t catch it before posting.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Widowfield</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Widowfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By &quot;see&quot; I meant the broadly &quot;to understand.&quot; It is important, as you say, to try to feel what others feel.

When you hear somebody say, &quot;Well, I don&#039;t understand why she should be offended by that!&quot; -- it means they are imagining themselves in that situation.  They aren&#039;t trying to feel what it&#039;s like to be the other person. 

It&#039;s the same thing when you hear people wonder aloud why people don&#039;t &quot;pick themselves up by their bootstraps.&quot;  Well, that&#039;s because they aren&#039;t you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By &#8220;see&#8221; I meant the broadly &#8220;to understand.&#8221; It is important, as you say, to try to feel what others feel.</p>
<p>When you hear somebody say, &#8220;Well, I don&#8217;t understand why she should be offended by that!&#8221; &#8212; it means they are imagining themselves in that situation.  They aren&#8217;t trying to feel what it&#8217;s like to be the other person. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same thing when you hear people wonder aloud why people don&#8217;t &#8220;pick themselves up by their bootstraps.&#8221;  Well, that&#8217;s because they aren&#8217;t you.</p>
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		<title>By: Rage Against the Machinery &#171; Jack-In-the-Brain</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rage Against the Machinery &#171; Jack-In-the-Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] leave you with this brilliant statement by Tim Widowfield over on Vrider: Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leave you with this brilliant statement by Tim Widowfield over on Vrider: Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ROO BOOKAROO</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24006</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ROO BOOKAROO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Empathy is certainly not the capacity to &quot;see things from another&#039;s perspective&quot;, it is to share the emotions felt or shown by another person. Empathy is a a new feeling resulting from a contagion of feelings.
Frans de Waal has lengthily studied primates, who can feel empathy.
His definition is &quot; &quot;The capacity to (a) be affected by and share the emotional state of another, (b) assess the reasons for the other’s state, and (c) identify with the other, adopting his or her perspective. This deﬁnition extends beyond what exists in many animals, but the term “empathy” … applies even if only criterion (a) is met.&quot; 
Assessing reasons and &quot;identifying with the other&quot; is an elaboration by the frontal lobes of feelings already experienced in other circuits of the brain where the contagion of feeling takes place. That is empathy in the human brain is amplified by the thinking circuits, but its basis is not intellectual, it remains emotional.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Empathy is certainly not the capacity to &#8220;see things from another&#8217;s perspective&#8221;, it is to share the emotions felt or shown by another person. Empathy is a a new feeling resulting from a contagion of feelings.<br />
Frans de Waal has lengthily studied primates, who can feel empathy.<br />
His definition is &#8221; &#8220;The capacity to (a) be affected by and share the emotional state of another, (b) assess the reasons for the other’s state, and (c) identify with the other, adopting his or her perspective. This deﬁnition extends beyond what exists in many animals, but the term “empathy” … applies even if only criterion (a) is met.&#8221;<br />
Assessing reasons and &#8220;identifying with the other&#8221; is an elaboration by the frontal lobes of feelings already experienced in other circuits of the brain where the contagion of feeling takes place. That is empathy in the human brain is amplified by the thinking circuits, but its basis is not intellectual, it remains emotional.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Fischer</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Fischer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tim:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in somebody else’s situation. The former is the first step to understanding others; the latter is a kind of naive narcissism that does more harm than good.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Natalie Reed has a great column on &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/16/hipster-misogyny/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hipster Mysogeny&lt;/a&gt;&quot; at Freethought Blogs.  Very apropos your empathy quote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim:</p>
<blockquote><p>Empathy is about seeing things from another person’s perspective, not imagining yourself in somebody else’s situation. The former is the first step to understanding others; the latter is a kind of naive narcissism that does more harm than good.</p></blockquote>
<p>Natalie Reed has a great column on &#8220;<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/16/hipster-misogyny/" rel="nofollow">Hipster Mysogeny</a>&#8221; at Freethought Blogs.  Very apropos your empathy quote.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Wahler</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Wahler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Modern unreality&quot; as you say up front, this creation and what we perceive it to be, is the antithesis of THE UNSEEN, which is the essence of reality in mysticism/gnosticism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Modern unreality&#8221; as you say up front, this creation and what we perceive it to be, is the antithesis of THE UNSEEN, which is the essence of reality in mysticism/gnosticism.</p>
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		<title>By: ROO BOOKAROO</title>
		<link>http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/leap-of-faith-or-failure-of-reason/#comment-24001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ROO BOOKAROO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vridar.wordpress.com/?p=25931#comment-24001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is about faith and beliefs concerning Jesus or God. 
Alfred Loisy, being a former Catholic who fought with the Vatican, and got excommunicated, saw the problem of faith in connection not with God, but with the Church. He is famous for his quip: &quot;Jesus was announcing the Kingdom, it&#039;s the Church that came.&quot; He also defended the case of historicity against Couchoud&#039;s mythicism.
About being a believer, from his former Catholic perspective, Loisy said:

&quot;The ancient believer is before everything else a man who goes to confession, goes frequently, and even the more often that he does not indulge in the actions considered sins by Catholic morality. 
He’s a man who practices intellectual obedience, agreeing in principle to all the teaching of the Church, and accepting without examination every article he’s been taught; not discussing the meaning or the scope of his belief; thinking of himself within the Church as a disciple who learns from it all he must think about all the great subjects of life, what he has to do to be a good man, what he must practice to be a Christian.
This is a man whose all activity is regulated by an external authority, and who is not interested in thinking for himself, who would consider himself guilty of such temerity, who looks upon intellectual shyness as a virtue. He forbids himself to think of religious questions, for fear of thinking wrong; he takes his religious instruction from the good books recommended by his director, and he has no other thoughts than those that are guaranteed very orthodox and very safe.
This model of Catholic exists, it cannot be denied. He is not frequent, at least those who embody it to perfection are not very many, whatever has been done to multiply their number. For this model can be realized only at the cost of an abdication of nature, which many instinctively resist, and others  consciously reject as a violation of their personality.&quot; (Things of the Past, 1912).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is about faith and beliefs concerning Jesus or God.<br />
Alfred Loisy, being a former Catholic who fought with the Vatican, and got excommunicated, saw the problem of faith in connection not with God, but with the Church. He is famous for his quip: &#8220;Jesus was announcing the Kingdom, it&#8217;s the Church that came.&#8221; He also defended the case of historicity against Couchoud&#8217;s mythicism.<br />
About being a believer, from his former Catholic perspective, Loisy said:</p>
<p>&#8220;The ancient believer is before everything else a man who goes to confession, goes frequently, and even the more often that he does not indulge in the actions considered sins by Catholic morality.<br />
He’s a man who practices intellectual obedience, agreeing in principle to all the teaching of the Church, and accepting without examination every article he’s been taught; not discussing the meaning or the scope of his belief; thinking of himself within the Church as a disciple who learns from it all he must think about all the great subjects of life, what he has to do to be a good man, what he must practice to be a Christian.<br />
This is a man whose all activity is regulated by an external authority, and who is not interested in thinking for himself, who would consider himself guilty of such temerity, who looks upon intellectual shyness as a virtue. He forbids himself to think of religious questions, for fear of thinking wrong; he takes his religious instruction from the good books recommended by his director, and he has no other thoughts than those that are guaranteed very orthodox and very safe.<br />
This model of Catholic exists, it cannot be denied. He is not frequent, at least those who embody it to perfection are not very many, whatever has been done to multiply their number. For this model can be realized only at the cost of an abdication of nature, which many instinctively resist, and others  consciously reject as a violation of their personality.&#8221; (Things of the Past, 1912).</p>
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